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Old 11-02-2007, 10:47 PM   #31
Guyker
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Default Re: History of the Pledge of Allegiance

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Originally Posted by Coolio43 View Post
TP,
Is it true secular humanists deny the authority of the Bible, defy the authority of God, and deny that the Constitution and structure of our government and system of law was ever based upon Judeo-Christian ethics, values and principals.

Is it true secular humanists reject supernatural and authoritarian beliefs”, which means that reject that there is a God and denounce His authority over us. In the place of God, they worship science and the ability and achievements of man as the ultimate truth in the universe. They promote and encourage freedom of choice in sexual relationships, reproduction.
If a part of your question is an assumption that Judeo-Christian ethics, values, and principals(sic) underlie the Constitution and our laws and government because you have attached those values, etc to the authors of the Constitution, it really isn't a question at all, is it? That devolves to an error of logic. It would seem more relevant and easier to prove or maintain that since the authors all owned property, all true Americans must own property, or that the only real valid viewpoint has a predominantly agrarian source with perhaps a hefty leavening of lawyers. Traditions MAY have framed the questions the "founding fathers" addressed, without being relevant to the answers they supplied.

Meanwhile,although I'm not a secular humanist, I have to ask: are you suggesting that we don't or shouldn't enjoy freedom of choice in sexual relationships? (And I thought I married the woman of my dreams!) If so, may I have your permission to marry my wife again? I couldn't face the next 34 years without her you see.

This has got to be one of the richest threads ever! From reciting the pledge of allegiance to getting remarried, whodathunk!
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Old 11-03-2007, 11:46 AM   #32
Thomas Paine
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Default Re: History of the Pledge of Allegiance

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Originally Posted by Guyker View Post
A part of what I think divides us on this issue today, into camps of fundamentalists with strong feelings that the nation has abandoned Christian practises, and those who feel religion is not a nation's business, is a question of responsibility. Like much we find in our culture, too many fail to accept that it is their responsibility alone to worship, tend to their spiritual needs, and reconcile faith and materialism. It isn't the government's job, or school's,or society's, to nurture an individual's spiritual or religious needs. All the government is required to do is insure you and all others are free to practise the religion of your choice (or not to, if that is your choice). It is and must be disinterested in the question. If you can not reconcile evolution, or physics, or gravity, or a spherical earth, to your faith, it is not a problem properly taken up by schools, for instance, but by you or your church. If you find that your faith isn't going to allow you to not force other schoolchildren to pray, that you just gotta make 'em pray, the serious deficiencies are in your faith, not in our Supreme Court or the laws and Constitution it upholds.
I believe in a universe operating on principles of Newtonian/Einsteinian physics in a cosmos, and quantum physics in a microcosmos. I believe I have a soul, a spirit, an emotional reality which is not bounded by those laws of physics, but which is enabled by God to achieve an understanding of them through the mechanism of reason. I am as committed to reason, (a gift of God, if you will) as well as to faith. They both answer questions in my life, give my life a full flavor. Life is experience and much more, and some of that is quite simply an illusion from both the reasoned mind and the soul of faith. (Example: Medical practises based on science evolve, from the certainty that a particular cure works, to one that it doesn't fairly often. The past 100 years shows that reason is sometimes wrong. At the same time, I can't offer up a categorical, empirical proof of God; for my faith, I simply don't need to, and don't need to validate that with someone else.) I take responsibility for my beliefs, but I would resist anyone who agreed with me attempting to impose them on others. My faith AND my science are different spheres of my experience and are secure without duress.
A nicely put, well-stated position. Welcome to the board. I hope to see more of your contributions.

Thomas did not believe the resurrection [John 20:25], and, as they say, would not believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So neither will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every other person, as for Thomas. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
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