Cluster bombs - Page 3

cdu7 · 06-01-2008, 12:32 PM

I’m afraid in this case I have to take position of my military; the “threat” cluster bombs represent to civilians is small enough to be negated by their extreme tactical effectiveness. Perhaps Vietnam era cluster bombs did have a high rate of fallibility contributing to the defective munitions littering certain tracts of land, but modern versions do not have such high rates of failure. In fact, US cluster bombs generally employ “smart” technologies that reduce collateral damage and increase effectiveness.

For instance, the US employs a type of anti-tank weapon, the CBU-97, which uses guided cluster bombs. A bomber simply flies over the tank division releasing a single bomb, this bomb then divides into a series of laser/infrared guided shaped charge warheads which target each individual tank. As far as I am aware this bomb has never inadvertently harmed non-combatants and even if a bomblet were to fail, it would be a clearly visible object to any passerby. And what about the lives of our own troops that would be protected by such an advanced weapon? Friendly forces can effectively liquidate the opposing forces’ armor before they have a change to engage, leading to tremendous tactical advantages and friendly casualty reductions.

This ban sounds more to me like a feel good measure for high-minded European politicians who’s grossly underfunded militaries have not seen combat in decades. The banning of cluster bombs would do little to alleviate the suffering of those unfortunate enough to be in warzones, who are 1000 times more likely to die from the bullet of an AK-47 or from the blade of a machete. The real mass killers in this world are not the high-tech munitions employed by the United States and others, but the soldiers of third world nations imposing suffering through personal violence, rape, and abuse.

res · 06-01-2008, 12:40 PM

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Originally Posted by cdu7

The real mass killers in this world are not the high-tech munitions employed by the United States and others, but the soldiers of third world nations imposing suffering through personal violence, rape, and abuse.

American righteousness is admirable.

cdu7 · 06-01-2008, 01:06 PM

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Originally Posted by res

American righteousness is admirable.

Listen I understand American credibility has been shattered by the Iraq war, but that is still irrelevant to the point at hand. Ask the tens of millions of those who have been murdered, raped, or brutalized across Africa if cluster bombs were responsible. Hell outside of Vietnam I don't there have been more than handfuls of cases involving civilian cluster bomb deaths. Cluster bombs, mainly employed by Israel, have killed several dozen people on accident yes, but compared to the millions who are dying and displaced around the globe that is insignificant.

I condemn Israel’s misuse of them, but no one can seriously claim that cluster bombs are causing massive suffering to the lives of thousands. The fact is cluster bombs are not a pressing threat to the lives of war torn civilians. The same people who are trying to push through this ban completely ignore the ongoing genocides and atrocities around the world. To the tens of millions being raped and murdered in DR Congo right now this ban means nothing. Instead of passing a feel good law to ban a weapon these politicians have little to no experience with, how about they start figuring out how to stop the ongoing wars and genocides that really do matter to millions of people around the world.

Pragmatist · 06-01-2008, 01:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Leo

I'm sorry Pragmatist, I have loads of respect for you, but I did not expect you to take this stance.

I guess that just goes to show you learn somethin new everyday.

I'm certainly not advocating they should be used to advance any countries political agenda (like so many are used today) only saying dead is dead and in times of real war whatever is effective. I am sure you have seen pictures of Dresden after it was leveled in WWII. Was that humanitarian? If it takes that sort of thing to break the back of your enemy, thats what you have to do.

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I have grown up in a military family whose service to the Crown predates the Battle of Waterloo, and I have always been made aware of the fact that there are (a) rules of war and (b) illegal orders and illegal weapons.

Both sides of my family served that crown too, cept they bugged out along time ago (1645).

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Do you really enjoy having the USA lumped into the same category as China, Israel, Russia, Pakistan and India?

That does kinda suck. Can we keep em and just promise not to use em?

Pragmatist · 06-01-2008, 02:10 PM

[quote]

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Originally Posted by michaelr

OK on the pals thing.

Of course I did not suggest that the US dropped cluster bombs in Palestine, Israel did. The bombs were supplied by the US.

Hey, I've never advocated we give Israel so much as a pea shooter. It's not my fault, nobody ever asked me if we should sell them weapons. Thats half the god damn problem from the get go.

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I love the way you bring up a suicide bomber scenario, typical. Thirty Palestinians die daily to starvation, lack of medical aid, filthy water, and Israeli bullets.

Alot more than 30 die everyday due to starvation, lack of medical aid and filthy water in plenty of places but I don't hear you talking about them. I would also venture to guess that if the palistinians would be willing to accept the fact Israel is Israel they would be much better neighbors. Are they being starved directly by the Israelis? Are the Israelis responsible for their medical care?

The bullets do tend to have a profound effect but I just don't see Israel as the provoker in this case. Acceptance of Israel by Palistine is the only way you are ever going to achieve peace in the mid-est. Anotherwords, probably never.

michaelr · 06-01-2008, 02:19 PM

[quote=Pragmatist;601580]

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Hey, I've never advocated we give Israel so much as a pea shooter. It's not my fault, nobody ever asked me if we should sell them weapons. Thats half the god damn problem from the get go.

Alot more than 30 die everyday due to starvation, lack of medical aid and filthy water in plenty of places but I don't hear you talking about them. I would also venture to guess that if the palistinians would be willing to accept the fact Israel is Israel they would be much better neighbors. Are they being starved directly by the Israelis? Are the Israelis responsible for their medical care?

The bullets do tend to have a profound effect but I just don't see Israel as the provoker in this case. Acceptance of Israel by Palistine is the only way you are ever going to achieve peace in the mid-est. Anotherwords, probably never.

They have turned there back many time over peace agreements made. Here is another example.....

Israeli Housing Minister to permit 1460 new housing units in East Jerusalem settlements :: www.uruknet.info :: informazione dall'Iraq occupato :: news from occupied Iraq :: - it

BTW I cry almost daily for the suffering, however there is only so much I can do. I feel bad for children across the world, but when we have any hand in the suffering in any way shape or form it really hurts and makes me mad. It is not that I am un-American or not beholden to my country, it is the government and their foreign and domestic policies that disturb me.

res · 06-01-2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdu7

Listen I understand American credibility has been shattered by the Iraq war, but that is still irrelevant to the point at hand. Ask the tens of millions of those who have been murdered, raped, or brutalized across Africa if cluster bombs were responsible. Hell outside of Vietnam I don't there have been more than handfuls of cases involving civilian cluster bomb deaths. Cluster bombs, mainly employed by Israel, have killed several dozen people on accident yes, but compared to the millions who are dying and displaced around the globe that is insignificant.

I condemn Israel’s misuse of them, but no one can seriously claim that cluster bombs are causing massive suffering to the lives of thousands. The fact is cluster bombs are not a pressing threat to the lives of war torn civilians. The same people who are trying to push through this ban completely ignore the ongoing genocides and atrocities around the world. To the tens of millions being raped and murdered in DR Congo right now this ban means nothing. Instead of passing a feel good law to ban a weapon these politicians have little to no experience with, how about they start figuring out how to stop the ongoing wars and genocides that really do matter to millions of people around the world.

I agree with you when you say that this law is hypocritical. On one hand it shows that the western governments are doing something to better this world while on the other it enables those same governments to commit atrocities in the name of peace and stability.

The laws and sanctions against those governments in Africa that are committing mass murders and where there are rebells that are doing the same thing, are already in place.

Let me use Bosnia as an example. Croatia, Bosnia & Herzegovina and FR Yugoslavia were under arms trade embargo. Yet, Croatia somehow managed to obtain huge numbers of new tanks, anti-tank weaponry, aircraft, anti-aircraft weaponry, etc. in a word to completely supply it's army (while under arms sanctions) and FR Yugoslavia (Serbia) managed to sell hundreds of thousands of weapons (all sorts of it) to countries like Iraq, Cote d'Ivoire, Liberia, etc. while all those countries (including Serbia) were under arms embargo.

The same thing is happening all the time. On top of all that Britain, United States, France, Russia, China are the worlds biggest producers of weapons ( and only permanent members of Security Council of UN) and their weaponry is being used in those same countries that you mention. So, those people are being cluster fucked by the governments that are hypocritically introducing new laws and then breaking them by supplying those same assholes that are killing them.

As for atrocities.
USA:
Vietnam, Korea, indigenous Indians of North America, Iraq, Panama, Grenada, Nicaragua, Chile, etc.

UK:
mainly India but there are many other resurfacing such as Kenya, Malaya and Oman.
The Hindu : Opinion / News Analysis : Atrocities of the British empire

Chine, Germany, Russia and France have made sure that they're not genocide free either.

cdu7 · 06-01-2008, 04:01 PM

Where I essentially stand is this: banning cluster weapons does nothing to mitigate current worldwide wartime suffering, but significantly reduces the deterrence and effectiveness of the US military in a future conflict. The only cluster weapons actually used by the US in recent history were a handful of those anti-tank bombs I mentioned earlier at the beginning of the Iraq war; we don’t usually break them out, instead simply choosing to keep such weapons in reserve. Cluster munitions are really designed to be used against large scale conventional forces such as massed troop or armor divisions, not rogue bands of terrorists or low tech guerrilla forces.

When it comes down to it the one big undisputed advantage of the US military over opposing forces is our air power. The F-22, combined with upgraded bombers currently in development, will represent air power that is unbeatable by anyone else on the face of the planet for at least 20 years. Great powers such as China or Russia have large scale conventional ground forces such as infantry and massed tank divisions in numbers that the United States alone could not hope to match. The way we would win such a conflict would be unrestricted air superiority that could rain hell upon opposing ground forces; cluster anti-tank and anti-personal munitions are a vital component in that strategy for victory.

A wise man once said that one should hope for the best and plan for the worst. Frankly cluster bombs, landmines, nuclear weapons, and all of the other things some are so intent on banning are designed for just such scenarios, worst-case. Will the United States ever fight a war with China or Russia? I highly doubt it, but if we did go to war with them we would damn sure fight to win, and that means having every available option on the table to use.

res · 06-02-2008, 05:26 AM

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Originally Posted by cdu7

The only cluster weapons actually used by the US in recent history were a handful of those anti-tank bombs I mentioned earlier at the beginning of the Iraq war; we don’t usually break them out, instead simply choosing to keep such weapons in reserve. Cluster munitions are really designed to be used against large scale conventional forces such as massed troop or armor divisions, not rogue bands of terrorists or low tech guerrilla forces.

You are wrong. USA used them against civilian population in Serbia in 1999.

Of this one I'm 100% sure. You mention Iraq, USA used them in Vietnam and Bosnia as well. So, there's actual proof that US doesn't use cluster bombs on military targets only.
Tell me, in which of these wars were the United States of America defending their soil?

Leo · 06-02-2008, 09:43 AM

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Originally Posted by res

You are wrong. USA used them against civilian population in Serbia in 1999.

Of this one I'm 100% sure. You mention Iraq, USA used them in Vietnam and Bosnia as well. So, there's actual proof that US doesn't use cluster bombs on military targets only.
Tell me, in which of these wars were the United States of America defending their soil?

These articles would appear to support your contention.

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In the most comprehensive report on the use of cluster weapons in Iraq, USA TODAY visited Iraqi neighborhoods and interviewed dozens of Iraqi families, U.S. troops, teams clearing unexploded ordnance in Iraq, military analysts and humanitarian groups.

The findings:
The Pentagon presented a misleading picture during the war of the extent to which cluster weapons were being used and of the civilian casualties they were causing. Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters on April 25, six days before President Bush declared major combat operations over, that the United States had used 1,500 cluster weapons and caused one civilian casualty. It turns out he was referring only to cluster weapons dropped from the air, not those fired by U.S. ground forces.

In fact, the United States used 10,782 cluster weapons, according to the declassified executive summary of a report compiled by U.S. Central Command, which oversaw military operations in Iraq. Centcom sent the figures to the Joint Chiefs in response to queries from USA TODAY and others, but details of the report remain secret.

USATODAY.com - Cluster bombs kill in Iraq, even after shooting ends

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An Iraqi member of parliament has revealed that the US forces have used forbidden weapons against Iraqi civilians in Baghdad's Sadr City.

DPA quoted Leqa Yasin, a Sadrist lawmaker in the Iraqi parliament, as saying that technical and medical examination on the bodies of the victims and wounded of the recent clashes show that US occupation forces have used cluster bombs against civilians in Sadr City.

Press TV - US uses cluster bombs in Sadr City

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Cluster bombs are one of the most savage and inhumane weapons in the arsenal of the United States Corporate Mafia Government and military. These instruments of bloody terror are used for the gruesome slaughter of both military and civilian people around the world.

Each cluster bomb is composed of 200 to 700 bomblets. When each bomblet explodes it fragments into about 300 pieces of jagged steel — sending out virtual blizzards of deadly shrapnel.

People are decapitated, arms, legs, hands and feet are severed from their bodies — anyone and anything alive in the immediate vicinity is shredded into a bloody mess.

Cluster bombs were used by American/NATO forces to brutally murder civilian people all over Yugoslavia in 1999 and Afghanistan in 2001. American forces have used cluster bombs against the civilian people of Internetportal.com - Internetportal Resources and Information. from 1991 to the present day. Millions of cluster bombs were dropped on the civilian people of Brazil Travel, Laos Cambodia during the viciously racist genocide known as "the Vietnam War."

http://www.robert-fisk.com/american_terrorism.htm

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The U.S. military dropped millions of cluster sub-munitions on Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam during the 1960s and 70s. According to Handicap International, more than 4,800 people, including 1,929 children, have been killed by unexploded but hazardous U.S. cluster sub-munitions in Laos since the Vietnam War ended.

Many of the casualties occur while Laotians are attempting to plow their land or while children are playing. In Lebanon, according to the Lebanese Red Cross, 285 people (nearly all civilians) were killed by cluster munitions during the Israel-Hizbullah conflict in 2006; since the conflict ended, unexploded cluster sub-munitions have caused 30 deaths and nearly 180 injuries, including several to children.

10 Things You Should Know about Cluster Munitions

There are literally dozens of such instances reported on the net.