MeMyselfnI

And what, if anything, is the difference between a Jewish state and a Jews-only state? From day one the Zionist Israelis have been hell-bent on wiping out the Arabs in Palestine, be they Christian or Muslim.

Currently there is a campaign in Israel to eliminate the Messianic Jews, (the ones who have accepted Jesus Christ as the savior of mankind), and the Zionists are hell-bent on wiping them out as well. The Zionist Jews think nothing of sending bombs to the residences of the Messianic Jews - Jews killing other Jews.

How do you 'splain that, Mr. Rhubarb?

MeMyselfnI

If Americans Knew

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Djinn

Any decision yet on whether the rockets launched from Gaza into southern Israel "undermine peace talks?"

Just asking. So why do you think they're building more Israeli housing in Jerusalem, anyway? What's the appeal? Why don't they build more homes closer to the Gaza border instead?

roobarb

Memyselfand you asked; "And what, if anything, is the difference between a Jewish state and a Jews-only state?"

You then answered the question with comments that as usual utter subjective negative stereotypes as to the characteristics of all Israelis and defines all Israelis and their government as having the exact same thoughts, motives, opinions and engaging in the exact same actions.

You uttered the following accusations without reference which engage in the above negative stereotyping and assumotions;

1-Zionist Israelis hell-bent on wiping out the Arabs in Palestine, be they Christian or Muslim;

2-campaign in Israel to eliminate the Messianic Jews, (the ones who have accepted Jesus Christ as the savior of mankind);

3- The Zionist Jews think nothing of sending bombs to the residences of the Messianic Jews.

You never cease to miss an opportunity to engage yourself in this kind of usubstantiated subjective referencing which could have easily be summarized as " Israelis are poo faces ".

You quote a web site;

Jews killing other Jews


and then asked me; "How do you 'splain that, Mr. Rhubarb?"

First of all by now one would think you are comfortable enough from our many exchanges to simply refer to me as ZIONIST POO FACE.

Your question calls for two responses, one I will provide now by concluding this post and another dealing specifically with your accusation that Israelis are engaged in murdering Messianic Jews in Israel.

In regards to the first part of the response, I would explain it as simply you manifesting your hatred towards not just Israelis but all Jews. That is why when you allegedly respond discussing concerns with Israeli policies, you engage in referencing that refers to ALL Israelis not particular government policies. That shows your hatred is subjective and irrational, i.e., it blurs the line between actual policies or laws you claim to be criticizing with Israelis as a collective people. It shows your hatred prevents you from referencing providing rational, coherent references and specifics. What is shows is you name call with the kind of comments that can't be responded to as they are not substantiated with objective measurements and are so general in context to defy discussion.

It can be explained as simply as- you think Israelis are poo faces.

Now what is interesting is you then quote a web site that refers to JEWS not Israelis.

By so doing you again demonstrate a classic tactic which leads people like me to call you out as being an anti-semite. You in turn in the past when I have called you one say, no your comments are only about Zionist Israelis. If that was the case, I would simply state you are an anti-Zionist, but the fact you add the word Israeli on to the words anti-Zionist, then make comments that assign negative stereotypes to all Israelis makes you anti-Israel not anti-Zionist Israeli.

The fact you then refer to the word JEW and quote an article that uses the word JEW when you are supposed to be discussing Israeli policies you are questioning, makes you anti-Jewish or anti-semitic not just anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist Israeli. You now expand your accusations and references to the word "Jew" and the very title of the web piece you quote is designed and intended to describe ALL Jews and suggest ALL Jews are killing other Jews. You now turn the alleged pretense of your remarks to attack all Jews.

You also exhibit complete and utter ignorance for the definition of Judaism and what the definition of Jew is.

If someone believes Jesus is the son of God and the messiah they are not a Jew. That makes them a Christian. As usual you advance a stereotype that one can remain a Jew but be a Christian. Yes like being pregnant but not pregnant at the same time. Again MemyselfandI illogical, irrational, and a manifestation of your ignorance as to the defintiions of Christian and Jewish and I would go so far as to state deliberate since you are already well aware one can not be a Jew and a Christian at the same time.

As for your question as to what the difference is between a Jewish state and a state only for Jews, you exhibited in your subsequent remarks you already believe there is no difference and your mind is closed to any other explanation and instead you feel engaging in subjective anti-Israeli and anti-semitic negative stereotyping is sufficient basis for your beliefs.

In my world MemyselfandI, there is a legal and political system in Israel that clearly demonstrates each day it is knesset, in its courts, and in its government, that the state recognizes Muslims and Christians and accommodates them using the same legal standards as it does its Jewish citizens.

You assume because Israel has a law of return for Jews that means its only a Jewish state. That is not what law of return states, nor is it different then the law of return of 80 other nations on this planet including all Muslim states and Jordan's law of return specific only to Palestinians.

If Israel was a state only for Jews, it would have expelled all Palestinians long ago, and would not be enforcing their rights in Supreme Court of Israel decisions, allowing them to vote, work, etc.

Are non Jewish Israelis living in an ideal world. No. They are caught in the middle of a larger conflict. But they are playing a vital and active role in challenging and being able to openly challenge in court and in the knesset laws it feels are unfair to its people.

Is Israel perfect no. But the point is it provides its non Jews the kind of state rights no Jew ever had in a Muslim or Christian nation and has an active press and human rights organizations that openly criticize and hold its government accountable for their actions internally.

We know MemyselfandI in your world all Israelis are evil and hell bent on killing non Jews. They run around with machetes and guns and knives chopping and eating them.

I myself when I was in Israel regularly was hell bent chopping up and eating Muslim and Christian Israelis. I didn't stop their I ate Bahaiis, Druze, athesists, and I even found a few Buddhists and ate them too.

MeMyselfnI

Mr. Rhubarb, as usual you've gone out of your way to label me an anti-Semite whenever I speak out against the Zionist Israelis.

The majority of the Jews in Irael are not Semites but emigrated to the state of Israel from Europe after WWII, courtesy of the British and U.S.

There are far more anti-Zionist Jews across the planet Earth than your mind can begin to comprehend, and these Jews definitely do not support the actions of the Zionist Israeli government and military against the Palestinians.

Do you feel better after having taken your dump?

MeMyselfnI

If Americans Knew

roobarb

Memyself and I asked me to explain myself. As part of this question she placed what appears to be a website article in her comments to me which states Jews Killing Jews.

The only website I could find with that heading was at www.rockhawk.com and mentioned nothing of any murders going on in Israel.

I do wish to “explain” to MemyselfandI that her accusation that Jews are killing Jews is anti-semitic prattle and nothing more then her usual using negative general stereotypes of all Jews and of all Israelis to incite hatred.

To start with you can’t be a Jew and Christian at the same time as MemyselfandI suggests. The definition of a Jew is multi-compartmental. You don’t pick and choose the parts of Judaism you want and discard the rest.

“Messianic Jews “ believe Jesus was the Messiah and son of God so their using the word “Jew” suggests you can be a Christian but a Jew as well.

While there is great debate as to what constitutes a Jew, all Jews except the above Christians who want to continue being called Jews agree, you can not be a Jew if you believe in precepts that are considered blasphemous and contradict the basic precepts of Judaism.

Christians who used to be Jews want to continue to use the word Jew, because it’s a recruiting gimmick. Its deigned to convert people who believe in Judaism to Christianity, It’s a hook.

All the leading Christian sects including the Protestant and Catholic churches are in unanimous agreement that “Messianic Jews” are in fact Christians who actively try convert Jews and they have stated openly this aggravates and exasperates cooperation and mutual tolerance between Judaism and Christianity.

In addition to trying to convert Jews, so called Messianic Jews try convert everyone else.

There are about 6,000 “Messianic Jews” in Israel and they have become involved in street battles with orthodox Jews (yeshiva students) who are ultra-orthodox Jews (many who do not believe in the state of Israel) who consider there attempts to convert others to Christianity by misleading their identity, highly insulting.

For ultra-orthodox Jews the conversion attempts and beliefs of these “Messianic Jews” is considered pissing in their face and it evokes strong emotional response.

The same volatile response occurs when “Messianic Jews” try convert Muslims.

Now what has happened is Messianic Jews made the legal argument that even though they no longer follow the religion of Judaism they should be considered Jews and so be guaranteed Israeli citizenship under the law of return.

Interestingly Zionism and the law of return are not religious concepts so don’t define who is a Jew in religious terms and it is here a legal battle has arisen.

Zionism was not and was never intended to define Jewish identity solely by religion and actually is silent on the religious component and that is precisely why Zionism states it sees the Jewish nation as using the state institution as a device to preserve and protect all Jews from persecution and to provide them a place to flee to.

It did not envision any of these Jews converting to Christianity but wanting to be called Jews.

The Law of Return came about in response to the holocaust, subsequent expulsion of 900,000 Jews from Arab League nations and Jews fleeing persecution from Argentina in 1950.

It stated if a Jew voluntarily changed their religion they were no longer a Jew for the purpose of enjoying expedited citizenship in Israel.

In 1989 the High Court of Israel clarified the above when Justice Menachem Elot stated a person who believes Jesus is the messiah is a Christian not a Jew and therefore not eligible for expedited citizenship entry through the Law of Return but this does NOT mean they can’t apply for citizenship in Israel just not under that expedited process.

In April of 2008, the Supreme Court of Israel rendered a decision in regards to 12 ‘Messianic Jews” arguing they were Jews and should be allowed expedited citizenship under the law of return. To make a long story short, the court stated one’s religious affiliation has no bearing under s.7 of the Law of Citizenship or S.4(A)a of the Law of Return as long as the person applying under s.4(A)a is not considered to be Jewish as per s.4(B) of the Law of Return.

Under s.’s 5-8 of the Law of Citizenship, any person (Jewish, Muslim, Christian, other) can obtain Israeli citizenship if they are present in Israel on the date of naturalization; have been a resident of Israel for at least three years during the five years preceding the filing of the application;has settled in Israel or intends to do so;he has some knowledge of the Hebrew language;has waived previous citizenship or has proven that such citizenship will be revoked once they become an Israeli citizen.




So what the above law says is, you want to come to Israel and apply for citizenship, you can just not under the expedited law of return process if you are not a Jew and no you can’t be a Jew and a Christian at the same time, because the definition of Jew is not just defined by whether your mother is Jewish, its more complicated then that.

In fact the people who have a legitimate legal reason to complain about the Law of Return are Muslim Israelis. They believe the Law of Citizenship discriminates against them because if a Jewish Israeli marries a Jew outside Israel or a non Jew outside Israel, they can become nationals but if a Muslim Israeli does that their wives do not become Israeli.

The State of Israel has said this discrimination is real but as a result of security concerns because it has no way of knowing whether the Palestinians brought into Israel through marriage could be terrorists.

That could be true. It could also be Israel knows if it allows Palestinians to bring in outside Muslims, the Muslim population will grow even faster then it is and soon the Jewish makeup of Israel will end. So its for both reasons. It also is for another practical reason. Muslim Israelis enjoy the highest standard of living in the Middle East. Other Muslims want to get in on the economic benefits and so would soon abuse the marriage process to try get quick entry.

So much if not all of the issues are the same immigration issues all nations face. The only thing different then Israel’s law of return and what Muslim nations do is Israel is up front about using the state to preserve Jewish identity. In the Muslim world under Sharia law, all legal rights and citizenship only apply to Muslims and Arab League nations have strict rules that do not allow Palestinians or Muslims from other countries citizenship even when they marry their citizens.

Israel’s law of return is no different then Jordan’s with Palestinians, or Japan’s or Ireland’s or Bulgaria’s, Slovakia’s, Germany’s the Cech Republic’s, Belgium’s, Switzerland’s. Finland’s Taiwan’s, Communist China’s, and on and on.

As for MemyselfandI trying to suggest Israel is the only nation in the world trying to use the state to preserve a particular ethnic cultural identity she is just dead wrong.

In regards to her prattle that Messianic Jews are being rounded up and murdered its absolute and utter bullshit.

roobarb

Ah some more remarks MemyselfamdI?

Now you claim the majority of Jews in Israel are from Europe and therefore not semitic. I won't even bother to respond to that because it shows the depths of your ignorance and utter lack of awareness as to what a semite is. Yes MemyselfandI the Jews of Europe in your world are not semites. Hey I know lets call them a new word European Jewish Poo Heads.

You make the comment;

"There are far more anti-Zionist Jews across the planet Earth than your mind can begin to comprehend.."

Again MemsyelfandI my comprehension is not the issue, your remarks are. Again in the above comment you go off on a tangent anout whether anti-Zionist Jews exist and whether I know they exist. It has nothing at all to do with your remarks or why I have challenged them and whether anti-Zionist Jews exist or not has no bearing on whether the remarks you have made that I challenge have veracity or not.

When you utter anti-semitic and negative generalizations about Jews, trying to justify that by suggesting there are anti-Zionist Jews that agree with you does not establish the veracity of your remarks, simply the fact you are trying to engage in the fictious device of trying to suggest there are Jews that agree with you, so gives you credibility.

I am sure Norman Finklestein would love to make wookie with you. Doesn't mean though that your remarks are credible, simply that he thinks they are. Let's not raise fictious armies MemyselfandI that you are part of and allegedly give you instead credibility-this is a dialogue between you and me. Stop hiding behind a fictious gang and stand up for yourself.

As for my dump, MemyselfandI are you engaging in scatalogical references? First of all I don't take dumps. Secondly if you are preoccupied about my bowel movements and their timing and frequency I had no idea you were a proctologist and trust me Meme I wouldn't let you anywhere near my kosher buttox.

roobarb

No what makes you an anti-semite are your constant engagement of subjective remarks assigning negative characteristics to all Jews when claiming to criticize Israeli policies.


Your attempt to try hide behind caring about Palestinians to justify your anti-semitism is with due respect not fooling anyone.

There is a way to advocate on behalf of Palestinians that does not require you to constantly rave and rant about Jews and Israelis.


You use Palestinians as an excuse. You exploit their genuine problems when you do so.

roobarb

Can we try get serious in our dialogue and avoid the kind of poison remarks that do nothing but demonize and explout Jews, Israelis and Palestinians?

They are building more housing in Jerusalem because the population has grown. In terms of whether Jerusalem is Israeli, and/or should be part of a future Palestinian state, that is a seperate issue.

There are complex legal arguements as to why Israel feels it has a sovereign right to all of Jerusalem. From your previous posts I know you would not agree with any of these legal arguements so there is no point discussing them.

Jerusalem as you know is an issue that was discussed in full detail. Arafat rejected the Oslo accord which would have created Palestinian authority to administer Muslim sectors of East Jerusalem.

In a comprehensive peace settlement fighting over who owns Jerusalem is a non issue. The practical reality is it is already run by a municipal administration that allows Muslims autonomy in their sectors.

Where it creates explosive reactions in Israel is over the fact that when Jordan administered East Jerusalem, Muslims would openly urinate and defecate on Israeli sites and artifacts and used to tear them down and sell them as souvenirs and such memories are not lost on Israelis all these years later.

Djinn

I was merely addressing the subject line of the this thread.

I am making the point that part of the reason that they're building in Jerusalem (and the West Bank) is that it's safer than building anywhere else. If you build in Israel proper, west of Jerusalem, it's more likely that Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or another group of pissed-off Palestinians will lob a rocket through your roof. In Jerusalem, they're comparatively safe.

Really? By and large, I defend Israel's actions. Not always, but often. Are you sure you're not mistaking me for someone else?

MeMyselfnI

The remarks made in the above post are outright lies. I have NEVER made "subjective remarks or assigned negative characteristics to all Jews."

I do NOT "constantly rave and rant about Jews and Israelis." I have made numerous posts to this forum board which had nothing whatsoever to do with Israel, and I have NEVER "raved and ranted about Jews" per se.

Pray, tell me, Mr. Rhubarb, how one goes about advocating on behalf of Palestinians wit